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Post by Blue on Mar 12, 2006 10:57:54 GMT -5
With ER continuing on for as long as it has the number of horses that grow each day from breeding, customs, imports, and local stock, those blood lines are getting pretty "old," so to speak. I was clicking through the lineage of one of newer appys and found that I would need a few more generation branches off to the right to show the rest of the family tree.
I know there's been a small buzz amoung appy breeders to find and keep pure appy lines in the game, however, with some of the generations getting to the point where they are fairly long, would there ever be a point where by simply looking at the "first" page of a pedigree and seeing no crossbreedings, would that ever be considered pure? Or would that one out breeding taint the entire line as impure? Or would there be a third classification created for breeds that can crossbreed, but haven't had any out-of-line breedings for quite sometime?
What are your thoughts on this? Is there going to be a difference between pureline and crossbreed with extensive pedigrees? Or will there be an ancientline, pureline, and crossline appy in the barns one day?
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Post by Demonmare on Mar 12, 2006 17:31:08 GMT -5
There was three Novemeber Special Stallions я Malicious Explosion ஒMPஒ Midnight Summer Dream Red River ÐΡΨ
Okay the three "foundation lines" Lets call the Novemeber Special Appaloosa's Foundation lines, because for some they are the founding stallions for the pattern. I started in this game as a Pattern Breeder.
*has a discussion with the Hubby while doing up this post, edits three times*
So for us *chuckles* Any Appaloosa that has any TB, AQH or Arabian lines all the way back to the orginal import is deemed "diluted". One of the big reasons for breeding to the TB's was to get the Lp/lp, but the other was to get the stats. This I feel was needed for some Ranches, but there now alot more properly patterned stallions avaliable in the game so this is not as needed.
To throw the term "pure" onto a high stated Appaloosa Stallion/Mare I believe that they should be Appaloosa all the way through. Anyone can take a import mare, breed it to one of those high stated TB's and get an Appaloosa, but is it really an Appy?
For me the term pure Appaloosa needs to have these qualifications. 1. Lp pattern or Soild, Appaloosa's are spotted. I am breeder first and foremost of the Appaloosa spots. The pintaloosa pattern is acceptable as it can be bred out with time. Now in the case of the imports, we don't have a choice in the patterns that they come with so, we can safely allow the the paint pattern for a couple generations, with an attempt to get the spots. When I first started playing the game there was three breeders that were breeding for proper patterns, and there was only three stallions that held that pattern, so the spots are Very important to my breeding program.
2. No introduction of TB, AQH, or Arabian lines as far back as the orginal import. On either side. In the case of LS's I think that we can allow this as the LS breed is not a defined breed. Again I feel that this is to show that the Appaloosa can come up on its own breeders. The TB breeders did it with TB's we can do it with Appaloosas. LOL
I do like the idea of Ancient Line/Pure line/ Crossbred line
I would set them up as follows:
Ancient Line: Novemeber Special Lined, more than one generation of any of the NS's Stallions
Pure Line: Anything that doesn't have a Novemeber Special line or one generation of the NS's
Crossbred Line: Anything that has TB, AQH, Arabian in the line.
So my answer to the question How Far back, the answer for me is all the way back. If one was to mark now who is pure and who isn't it will be alot easier to track in the long run.
*loves the Line terms...*
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Post by kaybriellea on Mar 13, 2006 0:30:07 GMT -5
My definition of pure is basically Appy all the way back to a LS or Imported horse.
I do not breed for pattern much but only due to the fact that i have two pure appys in RL one is easy to match to a pattern in ER as she is a snowflake babe, the colt on the other hand matches to almost nothing the closest so far happens to be the MWT.. So I am trying to get that into my group.
I only have 2 pure mares in my lot (breeding for more) and looking for more but most of mine were crossed with TB's and a few crossed with Arabs...
So basically if the horses lines lead all the back to a LS or Import they are pure to me.
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Post by Blue on Mar 13, 2006 2:11:39 GMT -5
See, my thought processes go along the lines that in RL often times there is outbreeding done in a breed to get certain attributes, strengths and to keep bloodlines viable. But yet, those resulting offspring many generations later are considered pure. In ER, as we know, most outbreedings result in Appys and are considered Appys.
I don't know, it seems to be that there should be some allowance for the horses who's lines have managed to stay around and produce appys for quite sometime on ER without outbreeding and still manage to keep producing quality horses. Something like "proven lines" or something like that.
Maybe it would help people in their breeding goals. Everyone would like to have an ancient line or a pure line, but I think a breeder who can bill a certain line as a "proven line" might also find themselves more attracted to continuing on with breeding goals to even maybe find themselves creating a pure appy line of their own.
DM: So, with the idea of the ancient line, it doesn't have to be a pure line, but a line that contains the original NS? Am I understanding that correctly as your view?
Maybe the classification of appy lines will also help breeders improve where they want to take their horses. Yeah, I think I like the lines concept myself too.
Ancient lines: Would that be ONLY the Appy NS's? Or any NS's? And I do think that there would have to be in there at least twice, either double bred or two seperate NS's.
Pure lines: Only LS and Import origions. Pure lines can also be Ancient since NS's count. (Double points lol)
Proven lines: Pedigree contains no outbreedings, even though there maybe outbreeding further back in the line. Proven lines can also be Ancient by the same definitions. Proven lines can never be Pure lines, however.
Crossbred lines: Pedigree contains one or more non-appy breed. Crossbred can also be Ancient Lines and can one day become proven lines, but it will never be Pure lines.
So, how do we feel about something like that? And, will this really benefit the breeders? I think it will, but I value everyone's opinion here. ;D
-Blue.
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Post by kaybriellea on Mar 13, 2006 7:37:44 GMT -5
Ok just so I am understanding the breed lines here have I got this right This mare www.equine-ranch.com/horseinfo.php?horseid=37542She is classed as PURE LINED due to the fact she only holds 1 NS in her blood line. But her foal to be will be Ancient Pure Lined as he would have in his pedegree at least 4 x to all 3 NS... Is that correct? or did I read it wrong LOL
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Post by Blue on Mar 13, 2006 10:27:16 GMT -5
Kay: It looks that way. If we breeders adopt the two Appy NS's rule as the basis for the ancient definition, then the dam is Pure lined and the foal will be Ancient Pure lined.
I just want to throw a quick little blurb out too regarding the impact of the line definition on the value of a horse. A horse with Ancient, Pure, Proven, Crossbred, or any combination there of doesn't mean that that horse is superior to any other appy, it just means from a breeding and techincal stand point that the seperate lines are going in different directions. I don't want players to feel cheated or slighted that their horse isn't good enough. It might not meet the needs of a breeder that wants to excerise a Pure line breeding program while another player may be going for Proven lines, and another player just doesn't care as long as the appy is sound.
I was running Pure Lines through my stables not too long ago, but the horses weren't just sound enough. I mixed in some Crossbred horses to get their numbers up and reduce the amount of bad stats popping up. I still have one horse that is Ancient Pure Lined. So far, I haven't tested how he will be at producing. I have, however, bred him so we'll be seeing how it goes for him.
I'm really finding this little discussion helpful. -Blue.
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Post by Demonmare on Mar 13, 2006 11:06:40 GMT -5
Okay I just skimmed through what was up, but will take a more detailed look at the postings.
I have been rather successful in staying sound in my horses, and have noticed the more of the NS TB stallions that are throw in the lower the conformation goes.
I do like the classification of the lines as long as the Ancient line stays with Just the Appaloosa NS's.
Someone should sticky that so others can find it and maybe take it into the other forum? Just so that other Appaloosa breeders who aren't here know what we are talking about.
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Post by Blue on Mar 13, 2006 11:42:26 GMT -5
*sploges a sticky* I intended on posting a link to this on ER2 under the appy section, just hadn't got to it. lol ;D
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Post by violincat020 on Jul 19, 2006 15:06:00 GMT -5
Hm. On the incoming v4 version, how will Appy's be classified (a few generations down the line that is)? Would we continue to classify them as Ancient (with Appy CoD lines instead of Appy NS lines since NS will not exist), Pure as no crossbreeding, and crossbred as crossbred? At the beginning, when there will be imports, customs, LS, and CoD mare offspring, how will Arab/AQH/TB CoD offspring factor into the classification? If we breed an Appy CoD direct decendant to another breed CoD direct decendant for a third generation foal, would that foal be 'tainted'? Or since the game populations would be so small, would that line still be able to count as a Pure Appaloosa line if no other outcrossing occured? I think my question should really be - In the new v4, will CoD Arab/AQH/TB lines be admissible into Appaloosa lines in the beginning to start a solid foundation, of which the resulting lines will still be able to be classified as Pure? Or would those lines be Crossbred? lol. Also, what would constitute "Ancient" in the new version?
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Post by Blue on Jul 26, 2006 11:54:48 GMT -5
I think the term "Ancient" may be thrown out the window. While I like the idea that the COD mares will be considered ancient lines, there's not really enough of them in the game that are appy to really be able to create a large foundation stock base. Though I am more inclined to reserve the term "ancient" for the instance where the CoD mares have had a reasonably large effect on the breed as the V3 NS's had on those appys with their lines. So, while they may not be "ancient" for the start of the game, later down the road we may take up the option of billing them as such.
Also, something else to consider for the ancient lines, the original imports we start off with. While they may not be as grand as the CoD mares have the potential to be, they are none-the-less the originals of the game. Perhaps the term ancient could give way to "founding lines." Describing both CoD's and the original appy imports up to a certain date. Like all the appy imports until Bran resets the imports. Something to think over.
"Pure lines", in my opnion, should stay as they are now. No crossbreeding in the line, LS accepted of course.
"Crossbred" shall be, well, crossbred. lol
And I would like to reintroduce the concept of "proven". Crossbreeding early in the line to get the desired effect and breeding strictly appy as the line goes on to establish an all appy breeding pedigree.
Just my ideas on the subject. -Blue.
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Post by violincat020 on Jul 28, 2006 3:06:51 GMT -5
That makes a lot of sense - I definitely like the idea of considering our first imports as foundation lines as well as the CoD mares; and I think the "proven" idea is great too I'm so excited for the new version!!
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